After lobbying by commercial real estate groups, Florida’s Department of Revenue spiked a plan that could have imposed more taxes on business leases. For complete article…..
Thankfully the Department of Revenue decided not to pursue further this job killing double tax.
Attendees: Eric Odum with Martin Gramatica and Terry Hunt
Date: October 24, 2011
Subject: The Market Minute
EO: Good Afternoon! Welcome to Market Minute. I’m Eric Odum, I’m the principal broker for Net Lease Commercial Advisory, and today we have two very special guests with us, and I’d like to just go ahead and roll right into it.. Terry Hunt, Terry is a local developer; I think you’ve been in the market for about 30 years now developing primarily industrial buildings, is that correct?
EO: Bill and Santiago both working with you…..so the three amigos are together in business.
MG: Amigos every now and then.
EO: Terry you were working on this project with the Gramatica brothers. How did you get together on this?
TH: Well, probably three years ago now, Deborah Tamargo, a long time Commercial Realtor friend, brought those people to see me. The humor around our office is that Deborah brought them in to buy a building from me and two weeks later, I throw away $18,000 worth of prints that were ready to go for permitting. We redesigned the office where I’m right now, my new corporate office, and two warehouses that we were ready to break ground on and adopted his [Martin’s] product for the exterior of the building. We never looked back. It was the best $18,000 I’ve ever thrown away.
EO: Just to get it straight, you were ready to go, and you had previous plans and you met Martin. The product you saw as beneficial for you, so you basically trashed the entitlement work you’d already done on it and started from scratch.
TH: That’s it exactly right, and it gave us an opportunity to be a little bit different. I think in the economic world that we’re in, somebody, a developer, a realtor, anybody in the real estate business wants to have something a little bit different and this product that Martin brought to the table, I’ve seen where it would give us an opportunity to be different. It’s really worked for us. We are different.
EO: You guys brought some samples here, Martin do you want to explain a little bit about what this is?
MG: Sure, the core is closed cell polystyrene and it’s skinned with two fiber cement boards. The 100% main benefit of it is the energy efficiency. With Terry’s wall we have an R32. We have an 8” wall, R32, where a block wall would give you an R value of 1. So, right there increases it tremendously.
EO: Explain R values, what exactly does that mean?
MG: That’s the insulation value of the product, so from an R1 to an R32 on the same thickness of panel.
EO: So it’s almost like a Styrofoam almost…
MG: That’s basically what it is. What we tell people is, you are building an igloo cooler on the shell of your building.
EO: But the exterior of it is a very hard substance, a very hard material.
MG: That is the fiber cement board; most people know like a Hardie Board. We use Nichiha, which is the same standards; it’s just a little greener. By using (Nichiha), you have the hard skins on the outside, and the foam in the inside. There are some competitors they put the cement in the middle of the foam and have the foam on the outside, so that makes it a softer product. This way, you never get to the foam. Termites won’t eat it, because they won’t eat the foam, they won’t eat the glue that we use, and they definitely won’t eat the fiber cement. We used all steel track in Terry’s building, so obviously they won’t touch any of that. So basically, Terry’s got a 100% termite proof building on the shell and obviously energy efficient.
EO So, let’s talk about strength a little bit, because it’s important in the state of Florida. You’ve got the hurricane situation. How does this substance hold up with hurricanes, for example?
MG: We had the whole product tested for Miami-Dade, and also for Florida product approval number. The standard system that we sell starts out at 130 mph from there you can engineer it to about 200 mph. So anywhere in the range; we have a house going on the water right now that’s 170. And it’s the same panel you can use for a 100sq. ft shelter that we sent to Haiti, to 10,000sq. ft. like Terry’s buildings, or even his corporate office.
EO: How does that compare with a concrete block?
MG: On the price or the energy efficiency?
EO: No, on strength?
MG: Oh, on strength, we are stacking strength 5 times stronger than block, and then on the projectile where they shoot the 2×4, we are the only company that has passed the Miami-Dade standard with a fiber cement board, where they shoot the 2×4. Some have passed it with metal skins, but the difference with that is, the metal skin tends to sweat. It’s kind of like a coke can, where the fiber cement does not sweat so it won’t peel your stucco off.
EO: Well, Terry, the building we’re shooting this video in is made out of this material, correct?
TH: 100%.
EO: Tell me a little bit about the building. This is the thing that struck me, how many sq. feet again?
TH: In our Corporate Office?
EO: Corporate office.
TH: 2,000 sq. ft.
EO: 2,000 sq. ft and the dollars and cents of it. The most expensive energy bill you’ve had was in the summer like most of us, right?
TH: Absolutely.
EO: And what was that on a 2,000 sq. ft. structure?
TH: We’ve never had a bill over $165.
EO: In the winter it’s running?
TH: Well, the unique thing in the winter time it’s running in the $70-$80 range, and we never turned the heat on….only one time this winter. The refrigerator and computer towers throw enough heat out. The lowest temperature it ever got in here was 68 degrees.
EO: Over the course of time, over a year, it sounds like it comes out to about $100 average over a year, right?
TH: Well, everything’s relevant to that, but I think the number would be about a 50% savings from what your energy bill is. My house bills are considerably more than this, and obviously not made out of this product. I’ve got 5 or 6 times that much with my house and I’m paying $300 and $400 (per month) on that particular bill right now.
EO: That would make sense. Commercially the average in Tampa is about $1.50/sq. ft. annually for electric costs, and you guys just on this building are running in the neighborhood of about .75 to $1.00/sq.ft. So that would be about right then.
TH: I hired an engineer when we did one of these commercial buildings and made him use all of Martin’s specs for the product and the A/C system was cut more than 50%. They wanted 11 ½ tons if it was conventionally done and they did it for 6 tons. They wanted to build it with 5 (tons), but I had them bump it just to be conservative.
EO: Now what is the product called?
MG: SIPS – Structural Insulated Panel Systems.
EO: Your development here is the United Business Park off of Hillsborough, and you’ve actually already constructed warehouse facility out of the SIPS product. Correct?
TH: We’ve constructed two 10,000 sq. ft buildings, and the ability to finish this product off in a warehouse atmosphere is very unique. You don’t have to put anything on it – you finish it like drywall – I’ll show you. You’ll think it’s drywall but it’s actually this panel, taped and mudded and for a warehouse look, it’s very, very pretty.
EO: Terrific. Now in terms of LEED, that’s the buzz word in construction right now, and that seems to be the standard. Are you guys LEED certified?
MG: Our product is, yes. We get everything from within 500 miles. So in order to get a LEED certified building, the best and quickest way to get to that point system that you need to get to is by doing a SIPS shell.
EO: So I think we have a pretty good idea now of what the base of the product is and how it’s working. Why don’t we go outside and take a look a little bit further on what you are working on.
EO: So, here we are in a SIPS building, and I think it’s probably been a month the first time since I came out here and it was – this is an air conditioned space – but the first time I walked in here it was not air conditioned. To me it was notable, because it was hotter than Hades outside, and you walked into the warehouse and it still felt like it was night, because it trapped the (cool) air inside. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about this space, Terry…. what’s in it and how the SIPS is working here.
TH: Well, we built this building for Keith Rucker, and Keith owns Quality Power, a very large power lawnmower dealer, probably the largest in the Southeastern US. And the reason he’s here is because of the SIPS product. We gave him an energy efficient building, and when I was giving you those numbers before, that’s the engineer that was in this building that did it. The product finishes off like drywall, as I told you before, and it’s just a very easy, friendly product to work with. You can do anything you can do with drywall and all this bottom stuff is just adhered to the SIPS product. There’s no furring, there’s nothing. It’s just the steel system of merchandising, all this is tacked right on to the SIPS product.
EO: It actually looks like drywall. If you came in here and didn’t know any better, it looks like drywall.
TH: You could tell somebody its drywall.
EO: And if you’re working on a residential property, I would assume there are benefits to that because you’re not having to put your cinder block, and then put a frame, and then put drywall. There’s probably some cost savings there I would think.
MG: Cost savings because we run the electrical chase through the foam and then you just pop out your boxes, so instead of having a 12” wall by the time you are done with block, furring and drywall, you have a 4” wall so you increase square footage on the house too…..not only the savings, but the square footage and obviously the R value.
EO: Let’s talk a little bit about the user. Why does a user care that this is an energy efficient facility. Talk about not only from the tenant’s side but from the owner’s side, as well.
TH: Well, number one as I told you earlier, the air conditioning here was taking 11 ½ tons. That’s two systems. Now we have one system that’s 6 tons in here doing it. So from the maintenance side, you’re at least 50% less maintenance and they run 50% less time, so your energy bill is down and your maintenance bill is down because they’re not running all that time. There are times that air conditioners just won’t come on. It’ll maintain that temperature for long periods of time. So, from an owner standpoint, Keith is on a lease/purchase program and we give 20% of his rent back in a 5 year period so he can purchase the building. The SBA has programs that work well. Your banks will acknowledge that, so the energy savings alone will make a huge difference in his budget over a 5 year period.
EO: So typically what are you finding payback periods on this type of a structure for the owner, from the owners side? I think after you’re running the air a lesser amount and you’re using less electricity…. it’s costing a little more actually to build, right?
MG: No, that’s where the misconception is. People equate it as a hybrid car, where you pay a lot more for a hybrid car. Here you are paying even cheaper than you would with block. Equally performing, we’re about 10% cheaper, plus you have the energy savings.
EO: So, right from day one you’re essentially saving.
TH: From day one, there is no payback period and the simplicity of this product. My concrete block guy is 60 years old…been doing it his whole adult life…looks at me and asks why would anybody build out of concrete block? That’s the man in business for concrete block.
MG: The other advantage is you can make it look beautiful. You see Terry’s buildings; more people have the thinking that just because it’s SIPS, the building is made out of foam, that it has to look a certain way. You look at Terry’s buildings you would never know they are made out of SIPS. So that’s another advantage you can finish them any way you want. That’s another huge advantage.
EO: Well guys I really appreciate you spending the time with me today, and I was told to ask you one last question. Who’s going to win the Superbowl this year?
MG: I always got to cheer for the Bucs, so I’m going to cheer for them, I’m not sure if we’re there yet, but I’m going to cheer for them.
For any interested parties, this is the letter sent to the members of the Florida Gulf Coast Commercial Association of Realtors (Please take a moment to contact your legislators):
FROM GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: Please read and take action to defeat this proposed tax.
Dear Interested Party and Fellow Brokers;
The Department of Revenue is trying to impose sales tax on Tenant Improvements.
This includes any and all real estate that incorporates tenants. This tax is in addition to the sales tax paid on the materials to build the tenant improvements and the real estate tax paid on the improvements.
Please assist us in defeating this tax on tax. A form letter is printed below, listing who to send it to, and who to copy it to. Attached is a list of our legislators, too. Please spend a few minutes assisting us in defeating this outrageous attempt to double tax our industry. We need your help.
Receipt deadline is October 20 so it must be sent by October 15, 2011 to safely reach Tallahassee. If so inclined, feel free to change the wording.
Also feel free to call any politician you know and voice your opinion on this issue. Get involved and thank you in advance.
Sincerely,
FGCAR, NAIOP, BOMA, CBA,
FR and others
Any questions? Feel free to call Bob Zegota at 813-263-4867 or Avi Adler at 813-463-3618
Letter to DOR:
French Brown
Deputy Director, Technical Assistance and Dispute Resolution
Department of Revenue
PO Box 7443.
Tallahassee, Florida 32314-7443
Dear Department of Revenue:
On September 21, 2011 a workshop was held to determine whether to charge Sales tax on tenant improvements for commercial real estate projects.
According to the State Statute 212.031 (2) (b):
(b) It is the further intent of this Legislature that only one tax be collected on the rental or license fee payable for the occupancy or use of any such property, that the tax so collected shall not be pyramided by a progression of transactions, and that the amount of the tax due the state shall not be decreased by any such progression of transactions.
This proposed rule is not only in conflict with the law as stated above, but also bad for small business in Florida for the following reasons:
It is double taxation or pyramiding as referenced in the statute.
Tenant improvements are 2 components, materials and labor. Materials are already sales taxed. Labor is taxed in many other aspects of government. Given the current economic climate, some landlords do not have capital to perform improvements on behalf of potential tenants. So the tenants do it to improve their business climate. They too then would experience double taxation. In this market, profit margins are marginal. A 6-7% variance of costs to a tenant or landlord can make or break a deal.
Once improvements are made, the Property appraiser reassesses the property to include tenant improvements in property taxes. Your proposal taxes this tax resulting indouble taxation. Tenant improvements are tenant specific. Once a tenant vacates, the tenant improvements have little, if any, residual value to the property. The lease itself is already taxed at 6-7% including CAM charges which are also made up of taxes and insurance and are normally tax exempt. Many leases include the costs of tenant improvements amortized over the life of the lease.
Cost of government and add on taxes have already devastated the commercial real estate industry. CRE is sales taxed, property taxed, corporate taxed, utility taxed, income taxed, license taxed, and so on. One more tax could bury an already struggling industry.
Taxes are already running amuck. Attempting to add another tax to items that are either already taxed or in other instances exempted, places an unfair burden on a narrow segment of the business population in our state. Our Governor promised no new taxes. Why would you attempt this in these trying times?
I wish to go on record as a person who adamantly opposes any new tax of any sort, especially those taxes which are nothing more than double taxation.
Sincerely,
Cc: Governor Rick Scott
My Legislator
=================================================
Information Sheet
Send your letter to:
French Brown
Deputy Director, Technical Assistance and Dispute Resolution
Department of Revenue
PO Box 7443.
Tallahassee, Florida 32314-7443
Email: Rulecomments@dor.state.fl.us
In subject line include 12A-1.070 Workshop 9-21-11
And:
Office of Governor Rick Scott
State of Florida
The Capitol
400 S. Monroe St
Tallahassee, FL 32399-0001
(850) 488-7146
His e-mail: Rick.Scott@eog.myflorida.com
This is to insure they receive everything and that we can track who and how many are involved. Your information will not be used for anything but this task
and will be kept otherwise confidential
It was my first trip back to the annual Orlando conference in three years. Since the beginning of the 3+ year old downturn in the real estate market, I, like many of my colleagues, had steered clear of the conference, deciding not to invest the time or money in the face of stiff economic resistance and little chance for deal consummation. While the economic ice appeared to be cracking several quarters ago, I thought it was time for me to make like Punxsutawney Phil and explore the Spring thaw.
Here are a couple of my thoughts of the conference and an overview of the first session of the day on Monday, the Florida Regional Overview.
Conference planners estimated that there was an increase of 10% in attendance from the previous year.
The gloom and doom was gone from the last time I attended in 2008. I am not sure what that means other than perhaps people are becoming more comfortable with the new norm.
The mix at the Expo appeared lighter than usual with developers and heavier than usual with brokers.
One of the reasons I have enjoyed this conference in past years was the introduction to new technology and services. With brokers and developers having less disposable income these days for technology investment and retailer expansion muted, it should come as no surprise that the conference was almost devoid of new technology. Some of the well known established service providers apparently decided not to attend either.
Most of the Economic Development teams in the State were present. Hillsborough County, City of Tampa and Tampa Bay Partnership were noticeably absent. Orlando had a terrific booth, full of education about how to invest in the area and what incentives are available.
Miami seems to be recovering faster than the rest of the State. The weak dollar has definitely been a help with foreign investors from Brazil and Europe.
All that said, the mood was upbeat and optimistic. While deals are hard to come by, many were out with their wish lists, trying to find the perfect match. I hope it was a productive conference for all in attendance. I know I was glad to feel like I was officially back in the game.
“Government needs to have more efficient regulation as opposed to less regulation.” Industry is unified in Central Florida unlike in other places in the State….Amway Center was used as an example.
Kieran Quinn, from Guggenheim Partners,
Florida has not done a great job of creating careers in Florida. Great universities… but not a great job of keeping graduates.
Regarding Real Estate: Retail on “First and Main” is not much of a concern. Demand will always be there. Office is on shaky ground.
Tim Becker from the University of Florida,
Capital markets are going to be shaken up by S&P downgrade, Politics, Europe etc.
CMBS Origination will not reach $50 billion this year. There was a big hiccup due to political impasse and economic uncertainty.
Life Insurance companies will be overweight real-estate, if stock market continues to drop. This will slow activity and take key buyers out of the market.
Q2 dip in UF sentiment, due to capital markets and political uncertainty. Fundamentals are pretty good actually, compared to previous years.
Innovation Square is the most exciting project in the State…it has the concept of creating careers for people in our State.
"Juniors" Break Out Session
Suk Sing from Darden
Tertiary malls are having the most problems.
Restaurants, entertainment and fitness centers, which are activity based, are highly valued. Retailers want shoppers to stick around. The longer they stick around, the more likely they are to buy at other shops.
There is an oversupply of secondary and tertiary space with a shortage on prime locations. There is an increased focus on second generation space.
Land Assemblage is back. In-Fill skills are important.
Lenders are very focused on leases right now. Deals are taking two years to complete because of increased scrutiny from government and lenders.
Hot retailers like Wawa, Desigual, Lulu Lemon are expanding. Globalization and more specialization is what is happening in retail.
Florida real estate markets show the first tentative signs of being on the verge of recovering from the most painful recession in the state’s history, according to the latest report from the University of Florida.
“They see the fundamentals of the economy stabilizing and they see the opportunity to get quality assets at a good price,” he said. “So if they think things aren’t going to get worse and they may actually get better, it follows that they’re going to want to start investing again.” Says Timothy Becker Director of the Bergstrom Center for Real Estate Studies
The retail and office markets are the worst off, Becker said. “Until there is an increase in job growth, there is no need for more office space, and people aren’t spending as much money as they used to,” he said.
Over the last several months, we have engaged some banks in assisting in selling some of their distressed assets. Sometimes the property is owned by banks from foreclosure. Other times, the bank is asking to sell the note, prior to foreclosure.
We have seen a very wide array of asset types, everything from unfinished residential development and raw land to retail centers that are marginally to nearly cash flow positive.
Last month we closed a deal that was almost 25% below the County Assessed Value. This is to provide you a sample of the value of the some of the deals we have seen.
Please let us know if we should contact you with deals when we receive them. It would be helpful to let us know as much detail as possible about the types of deals that you would consider.
Its not terribly surprising that the University of Florida’s assessment of the 4th Quarter 2010 real estate market is largely unchanged from the previous quarter. Market professionals continue to express concern about stagnant financial markets and rising unemployment in the state. Here is a summary of the Tampa Bay Area commercial markets:
Cap rates increased over the past quarter across most property types, with the largest changes occurring in Warehouse (+0.31% change) and Office: Class A (+0.26% change). The largest negative changes occur in Condo Conversions (-6.30% change) and Free Standing Retail (-0.67% change).
Cap rate outlooks indicate that rates are expected to be mixed across most property types in the next quarter. The strongest indication of a cap rate increase occurs in Office: Class A.
Required yields for Tampa-St. Petersburg are higher, on average, than that of the state, 14.36% compared to 13.32% statewide.
Required yields are highest for Condo Conversion at 20.7% and lowest for Free Standing Retail at 11.3%.
Required yields increased across all but three property types last quarter. The largest shifts in required yields occurred in Condo Conversions (+1.61% change) and Office: Class B (+1.49% change).
The investment outlook is mixed across property types, with the most positive outlook occurring in Warehouse and Distribution and Apartments.
The outlook for Land Development appears to be neutral to negative for all land classifications.
Future occupancy rates are expected to be mixed for a majority of property types.
Rental rates are expected to increase slower than inflation across almost all property types over the next quarter.
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